JAD: Because here's the thing, the churches up in verkalix kept incredibly detailed records. JAD: Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. SAM KEAN: It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. ROBERT: Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. Did you know there is a part of this show is gonna be like crazy breaking news, like happened yesterday and we already have a deep take on it? But if you've got a mom who licks you. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. It's off-limits. Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. Covid has disrupted the most basic routines of our days and nights. Radiolab is on YouTube! Were there any consequences? And these effects, in fact, were so strong that you could trace it to the grandfather. CARL ZIMMER: He's not just talking about toads anymore, he's gone way beyond toads. JAD: What's he talking about? Or is it? Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. [foreign language]. I know! I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. [laughs[ So yeah, it's embarrassing, but I believe everything happens for a reason. Knock it right off the DNA. SAM KEAN: It was this struggle for a few years. Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. Inheritance Radiolab Podcast Genetics Homework Assignment Homework assignment on the Radiolab podcast 'Inheritance', developed for a college-level cell biology class. That's a lot of people. ROBERT: Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. So yeah, she keeps me busy. Radiolab is on YouTube! If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. But with the midwife toad, the female SAM KEAN: Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along SAM KEAN: And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. Yeah, like you can help them overcome you. Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. JAD: Don't you see, somehow the mother's tongue is getting all the way down in there and going [mumbles] and messing with the baby's DNA. And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Go to him. LATIF: Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. Yeah, there you go. One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. It takes a while. JAD: Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. So yeah, she keeps me busy. And in one day, we can imagine, he gets curious. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. And that advantage, whatever it was, because it starts with one individual, and then it gets passed onto the kids, and then onto their kids, it would take a long, long, long time to spread through the whole population because, generally, that's how evolution works. DESTINY HARRIS: To her, I matter. JAD: Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? Or is it? His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: I'm going to go out into the streets and offer addicted women money to use birth control. We talked to her for a little while and At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. I don't think that puts me in the same category as Hitler. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. So he actually went to Vienna. If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. ], Sterilized? [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Barbara Harris's solution is simpler than anything else out there. Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. ROBERT: I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? But I'm going to give them a basin of water. It might be a mixture. MICHAEL MEANEY: What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. JAD: I know! Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So, we have our rats in the lab and JAD: They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". Okay, well of them, don't really know what happened to her. LULU: Oh actually, real thing, before we go, Latif. Actually, the idea itself is pretty old. JAD: So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. It's a little odd, actually. Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. Because the Soviets, they believe in Karl Marx's idea that human beings were an improvable species, that if you can change the conditions around people, you change the people. And I told Destiny I was thinking about this and asked her about it. Even though Destiny's mom was doing all sorts of drugs during her pregnancy and the doctors told Barbara that Destiny was going to be mentally and physically delayed Not feeling the way I'm supposed to feel. At once and we're watching 40 litters at a time. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: At once and we're watching 40 litters at a time. And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. She asked my opinion and that's what I'm giving. Like, I mean, as far as positives can go, I think I hit the jackpot. CARL ZIMMER: And when it came time to mate, the males and the females, they would mate in the water. What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? And Barbara is not offering that. ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. BARBARA HARRIS: They were seven and eight at the time. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. Whole lifetime of stretching. JAD: Well think about what makes proteins. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. Visit our website. That doesn't matter. They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside That is the time where the sperms are developing. It says, "Race of Supermen." ROBERT: That's Sam Kean again. Like Id be like, Weve got the keys, were gonna trash the house., LATIF: Anyway, we think about that all the time and I was just talking to Lulu about that and she was just like, You know, theres a radiolab about this.. So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of, So I guess you could say to yourself, "Seven out of eight of these kids did all right?". And in1923, he actually comes to England. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. They have six, seven, eight, ten, fourteen.]. This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. CARL ZIMMER: He was revealing it with experiments. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Well, its offensive. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much, it was as if I gave birth to her. BARBARA HARRIS: A couple of days later, I had already bonded with her so much, it was as if I gave birth to her. KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: She was born 1904 and this is OLOV BYGREN: Everything happening in the family KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Nelson, he was an idiot. And she says, one day, this idea just came to her. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? And she's a complete nut. The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. Yeah, thats it. Welcome to the Grammys of government-funded research. ROBERT: Which turn out to be an interesting thing to look at it because the people in verkalix who were farming SAM KEAN: Trying to eke a living out of the soil. And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. This is what's called the slow growth period. Live shows were first offered in 2008. ROBERT: And they didn't have these on land? Because the truth is, you have no idea how these kids are going to turn out. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: You don't think that they should have their children back?]. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? ROBERT: He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. And when she had a baby. Nice, cool water. You're slippery, partner's slippery. JAD: They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? The kingdom archive. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Okay, I'm here. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. And they had more. This assignment is from the free science education website Science Prof Online(ScienceProfOnline.com). I don't like to upset people. PAT: Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. PAT: And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. She should be with me. We spay them. You got to help boost if you had a starving grandfather. Like, mine are bigger, you know." ROBERT: And to believe anything else, that's naive. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? We went to the foster home and went in. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. Anyways, God bless you. JAD: Theyd basically starve. BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. ROBERT: So you think you can get deep down? JAD: Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? Like, mine are bigger, you know." And there were from the beginning. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. Because we had already had to upgrade from a car to a van, from a condo to a home. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? Maybe more. Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. It's such a surprising result. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. OLOV BYGREN: Well, the DNA, the RNA, micro-RNAs, histone. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. They could eat twice, three times as much. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". That's interesting. More of this particular protein. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. ROBERT: And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes SAM KEAN: That gave them an advantage in this situation. PAT'S MOM: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. Well, I mean, Hitler thought that if you were Jewish, that you had given up the right to be a mother and hed sterilize people as well. PAT: She did. Its gonna get messy. You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. Well, the DNA, the RNA, micro-RNAs, histone. What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? Yeah, there you go. Yeah. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, it drifts into something like a shopping channel. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Methyl groups are pretty sticky, they're hard to get off. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. ROBERT: Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. ", And I called my husband again at work and said, "They want to know if we want to take the baby." My situation turned out positive. LYNN PALTROW: The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. JAD: Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? All rights reserved. Because he couldn't hold formula down. Because you begin with a mother's lick that ends up with a deep, deep change in the baby, not just the good, warm, fuzzy feeling, but a fundamental shift in who that baby is, and who that baby will be. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? Nobody has a right to do that to a baby. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. You must have internet access to do this). It's such a surprising result. That's against the rules. It's against the rules. PAT: That's a lot of people. OLOV BYGREN: The results are there. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. Just a little. JAD: In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? 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